Danke Calavera. Das erste Mal, dass ich positiv von deiner Ansicht überrascht bin.
Ansonsten ein Post auf teamliquid.net, den sich viele mal durchlesen sollten. Wenn auch nur als Information:
On May 31 2010 22:29 Kazius wrote:
As an Israeli that does NOT feel that this was handled as well as it could be, as a person who has been to Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Gaza, and other places in person, who actually knows Palestinians and Israelis, I felt obligated to give a localized perspective. I am a human rights activist, non-religious (agnostic), and I am most definitely pro-peace (moderate/pragmatic left-wing), but I have had friends killed in this conflict. Now that all my biases are clear, here are replies, additions, explanations and addendums to various comments which I found incomplete, wrong, or biased. I have went through the entire thread, and in my replies here are also replies to many other opinions voiced here.
On May 31 2010 15:10 Empyrean wrote:
I'm also pretty outraged that they had the audacity to attack such a flotilla. Granted, I can kind of see where they're coming from (if they don't make a stand, what's to say other ships won't bring in weapons or whatever?), but couldn't there have been a more err...non-violent way of addressing the issue? Anyone's thoughts? I know it's a pretty controversial issue, so please stay civilized.
Israel had exhausted all non-violent means, including offering a way for aid to be transport into Gaza IF IT WAS SEARCHED FOR WEAPONS. The whole point of the floatilla was breaking the blockade in order for things OTHER than relief to enter. There are no problems getting food, water, fuel, medical supplies, etc. into Gaza. You could argue that this was an obvious relief effort - unfortunately, the Hammas has previously used relief via the sea as a platform for smuggling things such as anti-tank missiles, high explosives, and heavy machine guns.
With this background, the whole point of the floatilla was THAT news report, and THESE reactions:
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On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up.
On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:
But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil.
On May 31 2010 15:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
God dammit. US just needs to realize that Israel is a failed experiment, and that actually dealing with and supporting arab countries might be the answer. At least Israel is the Brits fault in the first place.
On May 31 2010 15:50 QibingZero wrote:
The sad thing is I'm pretty sure the Israeli Army actually has their people believing every aid convoy is really a secret plot to try to arm the Palestinian resistance. Ugh. -.-
This is no secret plot. This is a direct attempt to break the blockade. There have been attempts at smuggling weapons via the sea earlier, but it would take a total retard to try and smuggle them on the mentioned floatilla. The whole point of it is to force Israel to not search for weapons on ships entering Gaza, and unfortunately, due to the history between Hammas and Israel, that is an unacceptable security risk; they are already firing missiles into Israel.
The means to this end is that Israel can't afford not to search the floatilla, and therefor, it is a massive publicity stunt. They did it knowing that confrontation was inevitable, that because of some douchebag violence will ensue, and then the headlines will be "EVIL ISRAEL ATTACKS DEFENSELESS SUPPORT FOR POOR CHILDREN, think about the children!".
And despite what you think, the Israeli army has very little in the way of PR. It's the politicians who do that work, just like in every other country.
On May 31 2010 16:00 zrules wrote:
The saddest part is: it will not crack mainstream U.S. news because U.S. stations don't feel an obligation to report "small problems like these." It's truly sad that the U.S. considers entertainment news on their favorite celebrities more important than news about people in the world who are living lives a worse condition than they themselves. It is sad to say, but the truth be told, people just don't seem to value these kinds of stories all too much. Most people only care about their lives and their problems. While it might be in relation to the culture that we are in. We strive to succeed for ourselves, when we want something as the U.S. we are going to do whatever it is to get it (Our gas is cheaper than almost every other country in the world...). In that same respect, unless we are spoon fed news, we don't really care about people in Europe having an economic meltdown, or the latest breaking of Geneva convention rules. Only when it might directly affect us by having our economy go down or have a potential war that we are supposed to prevent on our hands, do we finally get involved.Now, my opinion: It's ridiculous for Israel to continually prevent the building of homes. The easiest way to make a radical is to deprive them of necessities, kill close individuals to that person, and give group more leverage in convincing individuals... It almost feels like Israel is trying to make a self-imposed Holocaust on residents of the Gaza strip, keeping them in a situation where traditional feelings of freedom that once echoed in America is continually alive, yet said wish for freedom results in the deaths of individuals which eventually becomes a self-imposed Holocaust of Palestinians trapped within a territory.
Counting on international media is terrible, what is considered by many WW3 happened in Africa (millions of dead, many countries involved, with the death toll increasing by hundreds of thousands annually due to disease and starvation caused by that war) was largely unreported because it wasn't news. That aside, if every time a few people died and 30 were injured was reported, then EVERY SERIOUS BUS ACCIDENT WORLDWIDE WOULD BE ON CNN. You'd see nothing but that, 24/7.
Comparing Gaza to the concentration camps is wrong on so many levels, as I have had grandparents that survived concentration camps, and have personally been in Gaza, and I can tell you that this comparison is invalid on so many levels that it more shows that you are willing to compare Nazis and Israelis using ignorance as an excuse than anything else.
On May 31 2010 16:10 EmeraldSparks wrote:
This would, full stop, be the best possible thing that could happen for Israel diplomatically.Total public relations coup. Tremendous victory. Terrible terrible discrediting of anti-Israel factions.
No it won't. Actually, my bet is that it would be reported in one line on CNN and MSNBC, and that's it.
On May 31 2010 16:25 Gnaix wrote:
When did the Jews get so fucking violent? Oh wait, that's because we gave them weapons and they started pwning all of the middle east...
So now it's the Jews, not the Israelis? Well, nice to see people like you crawling out the woodwork.
On May 31 2010 16:29 Jibba wrote:
Why do you think this is going to change the situation in Gaza?It's been in this state for years, and it's not just the Israelis to blame for creating this humanitarian crisis. Egypt is the one who built the wall. Saudis help finance it. The AKP will probably use it for political victory in Turkey once again, but they're not really concerned with Palestinians; they just have their own geo-political conflict going on with Israel.
It's horrible what happened, but why would anything change? Assuming Israel wants to continue on a path of statism, it has the leverage and is really not dependent on the US anymore.
EDIT: Gideon Levi's editorial in Haaretz. This was from before the attack.
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Gideon Levi (and most of the Ha'aretz editorial staff) are tend to get a lot of publicity by trolling the Israeli public. I'm a reader of that paper (they report news very well, and have some journalistic integrty). Only Amira Hess is more of a troll than this guy is. There is a reason why despite being the best in reporting international, political and economical news they are much smaller than the two big papers in Israel. And the proper response to trolls is to not repost or dignify their crap.
On May 31 2010 16:32 scion wrote:
People saying Israel has right to defend itself needs to get some information on the area. They get attacked precisely because of behaviors like this. They literally assume every Palestinians are potential threat. Israeli military drive Palestinians from their home, blockade them from Israel (literally walling them off) and segregate entire Palestinians living in Israel. Most Americans are oblivious to these things because American media avoid any negative news from Israel, and focuses on how Hamas and other Palestinian extremist groups attack Israel from all sides.What Israelis are doing to the Palestinian population is fueling the extremist groups. Wouldn't you be angry if one day, army tank shows up and demolish your neighborhood and told you to leave the area because you are not authorized to live there?
This is almost positively another example of overreaction from Israel. I really hope the International community grows a pair to criticize and punish their action if it turns out to be the case.
I used to be in the same opinion of yours, and then while (during my military service) we did a search in the road entering a small town, we found rifles hidden in an ambulance. Unfortunately, if Israel makes any exceptions for searches, those will be exploited, and therefor Israel is forced to resort to things like this. It's an ugly situation, and of course it makes Israel look bad. But that is the entire point, and I totally agree with you that Israel is fueling the extremist groups by it's actions. I find it brutal cynicism by the Hammas abusing this - they have no intention of allowing Israel to ease up on these actions because it would not serve them well.
The average Palestinian, just as the average Israeli, wants peace. Everyone that has been involved in the conflict directly (and isn't nuts) just wants it to be over. But peace talks have failed before because they were rushed and went ahead too far too fast (that one is on Clinton) or were thwarted by politicians caring more about their power and staying in office than solving this messed up situation (Olmert, Hammas, Bush).
On May 31 2010 16:36 san-tokie wrote:
Do some research on Mossad's activities and their agenda. They are believed by many to have orchestrated 9/11, as well as various other attacks on the US whilst posing as Palestinians. Basically Israel used the US to cripple Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran is inevitably next.
"Good guys" don't exist anymore in today's world.
Ah yes, the "JEWS DID 9/11" argument.
On May 31 2010 16:43 Mystlord wrote:
Time to pull aid from Israel!Please? This is just ridiculous.
Actually, the reason the aid is in place is to force Israel to not make arms deals with China, Russia and other international powers (massive deals were canceled because of requests by the US), force Israel to shut down certain military projects ( a good example is the IAI Lavi), to subsidize US arms manufacturers and business (Israel is forced to not spend it on local military products but only on US ones) and in order to get a strong political/military foothold in the middle-east. Unfortunately, the US uses Israel in the same way Iran use Lebanon - it is an indirect conflict of two great powers funding clashes on a global scale. The anti-Israeli sentiment in Iran is an extension of the anti-US sentiment (if you want corroboration, look at information about the Islamic revolution there). The implications of pulling that aid are huge.
On May 31 2010 16:50 Emon_ wrote:
It's all about occupation. Israel wants to cripple Palestine and keep them isolated from the outside world. I'm sure this is the Jewish faith at it's finest. Seriously, why the fuck would you not allow another country to get 14 ton worth of supplies, which in itself is a piss in the sea compared to what they actually need in humanitarian aid. Ten are confirmed dead. Killed on international water.offensive language
Seriously, go fuck yourself Israel. And anyone who supports this bullshit.
Israel doesn't want to cripple anyone. Israel is sick and tired of it's people getting killed. You have no idea how much the situation here is complicated. You choose one side without knowing the facts, and that's very easy from far away. Because once you zoom out enough, it's as simple as "big country vs. small country".
offensive retort
And for saying this has anything to do with the Jewish religion: FUCK YOU, you have some serious soul searching to do if you even have one of those to search
On May 31 2010 17:16 Sabu113 wrote:
The difference between the West and Israel is that Israel plays to win. Also all the rational groups that want peace are being outbred by the religious extremists. So yeah peace, humanity and a good outcome are not likely to be found soon barring some dramatic event.
Unfortunately, you are at least partially correct. Most people want peace, but it just feels so far out of reach nowadays. Each generation is not more extreme than the last, just more pessimistic. Most people just accept that the situation is shit, and will be for a long, LONG time.
On May 31 2010 18:04 mdb wrote:
Its so terrible. This conflict will never end as long as the country of Israel is in this location. I think the people who decided to build Israel on this place surrounded by Muslims and on muslim land are either the most stupid or the biggest trolls ever.
On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:
Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh.
Notice that Israel is the only country in the world which is delegitimized in such a way. There is no other country that people talk about and say "it should never have been founded". Israel is a fact, and it's here. It was created as a response to about 1500 years of segregation and hate (in everything from the church to Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice - which is not any more racist than any other view of the Jews at the time), culminating in a medium case of attempted genocide. This is the only place the Jewish people had agreed on for such a state and had been settling it for the better part of a fifty years at the time (prior to which there was practically no people living there, neither Jewish nor otherwise).
The conflict will end. It has to. You have no idea how much people are sick of all the death and destruction.
On May 31 2010 20:10 Masamune wrote:
The scary part about all this is that if Israel commits such acts like these out in the open, who knows what the hell happens behind closed doors; I've read about horror stories in Gaza commited by Israel. This time, they were unfortunate enough to have attacked western aid workers, which is probably why the spotlight is shining even brighter on the whole situation.Someone earlier had sympathized with Israel because of it being surrounded by Arab states--and both sides here are at blame--but if I had the choice, I'd rather be surrounded by the Arabs than the Israelis, assuming we didn't get along.
There is no military presence inside Gaza - rather than in accordance with the Geneva convention, Israel reserves the right to return fire towards the source of the attack, and when missiles are launched from things such as school-yards and the such, it is a cynical abuse of the situation by the people firing missiles in order to get people like you riled up. The situation is more complicated than you give it credit.
On May 31 2010 21:55 WeSt wrote:
Really? So building a barricade to separate countries is the best choice? Quite ironic you are German (no offense) you should know that walls aren't really good.
Actually, the wall you are talking about lowered the amount of suicide bombings in Israel from once a month to none. It's not a permanent solution, but it has solved some of the bigger issues. And hey, if the Palestinians want to be recognized as a country, they shouldn't get outraged at someone trying to enforce a border.
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Whew, finally. Now back to life.
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Quelle: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmess…¤tpage=18
Hmm habs noch kurz überarbeitet und die spoiler mit reingemacht.
